[webkit-dev] Fwd: WebKit and Khronos Group

Maciej Stachowiak mjs at apple.com
Sun Aug 9 00:32:34 PDT 2009

On Aug 8, 2009, at 11:58 PM, Harry Underwood wrote:

> Thanks very much for the explanations, everyone. Sorry about the  
> long chain of questions, but I wanted to form a FAQ-type basis for  
> future questions regarding the difference between what Apple and  
> WebKit are doing with SVG+CSS and what Google and Khronos Group are  
> doing with O3D vs. WebGL,

Even that way of framing it sounds potentially inaccurate. Some  

- Neither Apple nor WebKit are specifically trying to do something  
with SVG+CSS. We do support SVG, and we have some CSS extensions, but  
we're not especially pushing this combination.

- We're hoping others adopt our 3D CSS transforms, just as our 2D CSS  
transforms and CSS transitions have gotten interest from Mozilla and  

- Apple, along with Google, Mozilla, Khronos Group and others, is  
actively supporting WebGL.

- O3D is, at least for now, a Google-only technology.

- None of these technologies serve quite the same purpose.

> at least because a number (a minority, most likely) of people are  
> highly interested in the post-VRML "3D Web" nowadays.

There's definitely a lot of people interested in 3D. It would be good  
to collect the information about this.

  - Maciej

> Thanks,
> Harry
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 2:43 AM, Adam Barth <abarth at webkit.org> wrote:
> Resending from the proper address even though Maciej already answered
> your question.
> Adam
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Adam Barth <abarth at eecs.berkeley.edu>
> Date: Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 11:39 PM
> Subject: Re: [webkit-dev] WebKit and Khronos Group
> To: Harry Underwood <raynenamibia at gmail.com>
> Cc: Jeremy Orlow <jorlow at chromium.org>, webkit-dev at lists.webkit.org
> On Sat, Aug 8, 2009 at 11:14 PM, Harry Underwood<raynenamibia at gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> > So what you're also saying is that the combination of CSS 3D  
> Transforms in
> > Animations with SVG (resulting, I'm assuming, in SVG-transformed  
> animation
> > through CSS styling) does not translate or correlate to what  
> either WebGL or
> > O3D are meant to do, even though O3D and SVG are both retained  
> mode APIs?
> Yes.  For example, O3D lets you specify a light source and a bump map
> for objects whereas this API would not.  Also O3D gives you access to
> hardware accelerated pixel shaders.
> > And you're also saying that it isn't the intention of WebKit's
> > implementation (or Apple's Working Draft) of SVG Transforms (as
> > per http://www.w3.org/TR/SVG-Transforms/ ) to allow for the  
> construction and
> > styling of full scenes and models like those in O3D?
> I can't speak for Apple, but that would be quite surprising.  If
> you're interested in this topic, you might be interested in reading
> about Cg and the O3D shading language:
> http://developer.nvidia.com/page/cg_main.html
> http://code.google.com/apis/o3d/docs/shadinglanguage.html
> > The draft has a
> > combination of CSS transitions, CSS Animations and CSS 3D to plug  
> into SVG,
> > so it would seem like any composition using SVG Transforms could  
> accomplish
> > mostly with CSS what O3D accomplishes with JavaScript (unless I'm  
> not
> > reading it correctly).
> There's a lot more to 3D rendering than transitions, animations, and
> transforms.  In particular, 3D is largely about framing your drawing
> in a way that your graphics hardware can be blazingly fast.  That's
> way most modern 3D drawing APIs use something akin to glDrawElements:
> http://code.google.com/apis/o3d/docs/reference/classo3d_1_1_draw_element.html
> This API is usually the fastest possible way to send geometry
> information from main memory to the GPU.
> Adam
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