<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><br class=""><div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class="">On Sep 6, 2016, at 11:07 AM, Geoffrey Garen <<a href="mailto:ggaren@apple.com" class="">ggaren@apple.com</a>> wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><div class=""><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=utf-8" class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class="">“take” grinds my gears too — though I’ve gotten used to it, more or less.<div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">I read “object.verb()” as a command, “verb”, directed at “object” (or sometimes as a question, “verb?”, directed at “object”). I think most APIs are phrased this way. And if I were Antonin Scalia, I would make the originalist argument that Smalltalk originally defined a method in object-oriented programming as a message to a receiver — not a message about a sender.</div><div class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class=""><div class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">In the context of a container, take() sort of makes sense by parallel to get(). Though get() could be interpreted as either what the caller is doing or what the callee is doing.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">In other words, you could say that in the code below, function something gets an item from the collection. In that sense, take() is a parallel construct. Of course, you could instead say that function something asks collection to get an item. That's what makes take() not make sense. But I am not sure release() makes sense either way, for a collection. It conveys letting go of the item but doesn't seem to convey fetching in the sake way get() or take() do. I don't think move() would be right in this context either.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">function something(Collection& collection, Key& key)</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">{</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: pre; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;"> </span><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">doSomething(collection.get(key))</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">}</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div>Though it is possible to read “get” in this context as “I get from collection”, I think it is more natural to read “get” as a command: “collection, get this for me”. Other access verbs on collections, such as “find”, “add”, and “remove”, establish this pattern.</div><div class=""><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><span style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; float: none; display: inline !important;" class="">Given that explanation, I think a possible direction is to rename the smart pointer release() operation to take(). Many of our smart pointers already have a get(). And the idea of taking the underlying value from a smart pointer kind of makes sense, even though it is caller-perspective.</span><br style="font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant-caps: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; orphans: auto; text-align: start; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: auto; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px;" class=""></div></blockquote><div class=""><br class=""></div></div>I’ve gotten used to “take", so I won’t call it pure applesauce, but it’s not my preference.</div></div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My favorite suggestion so far is “move”. The C++ standard helps make this a good word because it introduces as terms of art std::move and “move” constructors. But perhaps it is bad for a function named “move” not to return an rvalue reference. For example, one might object to “std::move(collection.move(key))”. Why the double move?</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>But it kinda does return an rvalue reference! If foo() returns T then:</div><div><br class=""></div><div><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bar(foo())</div><div><br class=""></div><div>will bind to the && overload of bar(). I don't think you'd have to do std::move(collection.move(key)).</div><div><br class=""></div><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My second favorite suggestion is “release”. It matches a term of art in std smart pointers and it’s pretty clear.</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br class=""></div><div>FWIW, I still like release() better than move(). a = move(b) is a command to the system to move b to a. So, value = collection.move(key) feels like a command to the collection to move key to value, which is clearly not what is going on.</div><div><br class=""></div><div>-Filip</div><div><br class=""></div><br class=""><blockquote type="cite" class=""><div class=""><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" class=""><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">My third favorite suggestion is “remove”. For collections, “remove” is just plain clearer. But “remove” is worse for non-collection value types like smart pointers because we “move” values in C++ — we do not “remove” them.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">There are some good thesaurus words like cede or doff or discharge but they all lack familiarity as terms of art.</div><div class=""><br class=""></div><div class="">Geoff</div></div>_______________________________________________<br class="">webkit-dev mailing list<br class=""><a href="mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org" class="">webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org</a><br class="">https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev<br class=""></div></blockquote></div><br class=""></body></html>