[webkit-dev] [blink-dev] Re: What to do about scroll anchoring?
Emilio Cobos Álvarez
emilio at mozilla.com
Fri Sep 27 07:16:43 PDT 2019
Hi Steve,
On 9/27/19 4:03 PM, Steve Kobes wrote:
> Hi Emilio,
>
> My recollection is that scroll anchoring was, in fact, a mess. I do not
> personally have any opinion about whether scroll anchoring should be
> removed from Gecko.
>
> We (Chrome) decided to accept some compat issues for the sake of
> launching the feature. This was a judgment call and could reasonably
> have gone the other way.
Right, my concern is that taking compat fallout with Chrome's market
share may be acceptable, because people will likely fix their websites
if they misbehave.
But web developers may not take the same time to fix their site if it's
broken on Firefox for Android, for example, which in turn drives Firefox
users away (and you know this is a vicious cycle, the less users you
have, the less people will care about fixing their websites in your
browser).
That being said, more generally, I care about being interoperable /
predictable here for web developers, and seems like that ship may have
sailed if we need to fix some Gecko-specific issues by tweaking our
heuristics, but Chromium / Blink doesn't change them in the same way
(which is understandable, I guess, though I've filed spec issues for our
reasoning behind these changes, which I think would apply to Chrome as
well).
-- Emilio
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2019 at 09:09, Emilio Cobos Álvarez <emilio at mozilla.com
> <mailto:emilio at mozilla.com>> wrote:
>
> And, to be clear, we _can_ fix these compat issues, some way or another.
>
> One thought is to limit the amount of scroll adjustments without user
> scrolling or stuff like that, which would prevent the "you get stuck on
> the page".
>
> Making anchoring opt-in rather than opt-out is another option, but that
> defeats most of the purpose of the feature, I guess.
>
> See also some of the Chromium docs on the compat issues they found[1]
> and how were they trying to fix them before adding the
> "layout-affecting-property changed" heuristic, which is what is on the
> spec right now and what they implement.
>
> I just think that these are very hacky heuristics that are just
> going to
> bring a lot of compat pain and developer confusion.
>
> It doesn't help that all these things can break or not depending on the
> speed at which the user scrolls, the amount of scroll events that the
> user dispatches, the timing of these events relative to other
> events, etc...
>
> -- Emilio
>
> [1]:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nQAO4MYCDMn0rTkn_-WI6gjumk3Qi2Bn-MGuB3NlVxE/edit
> <https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nQAO4MYCDMn0rTkn_-WI6gjumk3Qi2Bn-MGuB3NlVxE/edit>
>
> On 9/27/19 2:23 PM, Emilio Cobos Álvarez wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > (cc'ing webkit-dev@ and blink-dev@ in case they have feedback or
> > opinions, as WebKit is the only engine which does not implement
> scroll
> > anchoring, though I don't know if they plan to, and Blink is the
> only
> > other engine that does implement it. Please reply to
> dev-platform@ though.)
> >
> > TLDR: Scroll anchoring is really a mess.
> >
> > I didn't do the initial implementation of the feature in Gecko,
> but I've
> > done a ton of work over the last few months to fix compat issues
> in our
> > implementation (see all the bugs blocking [1]).
> >
> > At this point, our implementation is mostly compatible with
> Blink, but
> > even with a bug-for-bug compatible implementation, we did get compat
> > issues because of different content being served for different
> browsers,
> > or because our anti-tracking protections changing the final
> content of
> > the page slightly ([2] is an example of bug which only reproduces
> with
> > ETP enabled only, but whose reduced test-case renders the site
> unusable
> > in Chrome as well).
> >
> > If you hit one of the broken cases as a user you think the
> browser is
> > completely broken, and the site is just unusable.
> >
> > I've fixed those by tweaking the heuristics Gecko uses. Those extra
> > heuristics have also caused other compat issues, like [3], reported
> > today, which will require other adjustments to the heuristics, etc...
> >
> > On top of that, the spec is not in a good state, with ton of open
> issues
> > without feedback from the editors [4].
> >
> > So right now I'm at a stage where I think that the feature is
> just not
> > worth it. It doesn't behave predictably enough for developers,
> and you
> > have no guarantee of it behaving consistently unless you test a
> > particular browser, with a particular content in a particular
> viewport
> > size... That's not great given the current dominant position of
> > Chromium-based browsers.
> >
> > On top, issues with scroll anchoring are pretty hard to diagnose
> unless
> > you're aware of the feature.
> >
> > All in all, it doesn't seem like the kind of feature that benefits a
> > diverse web (nor web developers for that matter), and I think we
> should
> > remove the feature from Gecko.
> >
> > Does anyone have strong opinions against removing scroll
> anchoring from
> > Gecko, based on the above?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -- Emilio
> >
> > [1]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1519644
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1519644>
> > [2]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1561450
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1561450>
> > [3]: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1584499
> <https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1584499>
> > [4]:
> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/labels/css-scroll-anchoring-1
> <https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/labels/css-scroll-anchoring-1>
> > _______________________________________________
> > dev-platform mailing list
> > dev-platform at lists.mozilla.org
> <mailto:dev-platform at lists.mozilla.org>
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> <https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "blink-dev" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send an email to blink-dev+unsubscribe at chromium.org
> <mailto:blink-dev%2Bunsubscribe at chromium.org>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/4fb3b637-50f5-1167-62a0-dffdeff06f48%40mozilla.com
> <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/d/msgid/blink-dev/4fb3b637-50f5-1167-62a0-dffdeff06f48%40mozilla.com>.
>
More information about the webkit-dev
mailing list