No subject
Wed Aug 1 07:28:53 PDT 2012
in a div with an id value that indicates it is the 'main content' is a
common occurrence, this indicates that developers do this for reasons other
than accessibility as the majority do not include role=main or use the div
as a target for a skip link. What the main element does is piggyback
accessibility onto a common authoring practise.
> Also, since few authors ever test how their
> page works in ATs, they won't know that there's a problem.
>
this is a problem, and it has begun to reveal itself due the misuse of new
elements such as <section> and <article>. the difference between <main> and
some of the other new elements is it is a simpler concept and is
unambiguously defined. It builds on the singular instance of use per page
(id value) rather than class names.
> This is like the difference between <a href=""> and <img longdesc="">. If
> many authors don't use <a href=""> right, big deal; their pages don't work
> well, but it doesn't stop other authors from using it. If many authors use
> longdesc="" incorrectly, however, it means users who try to use the
> feature quickly stop expecting it to work and they give up and even pages
> that use it correctly lose out.
drawing a comparison between longdesc and main here is fallacious:
longdesc is known to be used incorrectly much of the time while role=main
is known to be used correctly much of the time.
<div id=main> is known to be used correctly much of the time.
longdesc is bolt on accessibility requiring not only the correct use of the
attribute, but also the provision of extra authored content that the
attribute points to (i.e a lot of extra effort)
<main> is built in accessibility that sneaks accessibility in on the back
of a common authoring practise,i.e reduction of effort, much like the <nav>
element
> And, since few authors ever test how their
> page works in ATs, they don't know that there's a problem, and so the
> feature is _more_ likely to be broken than <a href="">.
that's why building accessibility into features that are based on common
authoring practises is a good thing.
[1] http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/HTML5-main-content/
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0109.html
--
with regards
Steve Faulkner
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<div><br></div><div>On Wed, 28 Nov 2012, ian hickson wrote:</div><div>=A0</=
div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bor=
der-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">
</blockquote><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">ARIA is used by very few author=
s, and those authors are, by and large,<br>
much more competent than average. ARIA therefore tends to be used to a<br>=
much higher level of quality than most elements.<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>The claim that developers that use ARIA are much more competent =
than average is unsubstantiated.</div>
<div>a quick check (html conformance) of some data [1] does not indicate an=
y difference in the competency of developers that use ARIA and those who do=
not.</div><div><br></div><div>ARIA like HTML contains simple well understo=
od features (such as role=3Dmain) and more complex features more prone to e=
rrors of use (such as aria-posinset)</div>
<div><br></div><div>Where features are well understood, map on to common au=
thoring concepts and easy to author they are often used correctly.</div><di=
v>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex">
It would probably be used about as well, maybe a little less well than<br> =
them because the idea of what is "main" varies from author to aut=
hor (e.g.<br> in the sites you analysed on the WHATWG list, as well as in m=
any that<br>
others have mentioned before, id=3D"main" and id=3D"content=
" often include<br> things like some navigation, some headers, some si=
debars, some footers).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The data =A0does=
not support the claim that "id=3D"main" and id=3D"cont=
ent" often include</div>
things like some navigation, some headers, some sidebars, some footers).&qu=
ot; It indicates that in approximately 80% of cases headers, footers, navig=
ation etc are not included.=A0<div><br></div><div><div>=A0</div><blockquote=
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:=
1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
<br>> so I don't see why they would make sense to be supported while=
<main><br> > doesn't.<br>The use case for e.g. <header>=
is mainly one of maintenance and styling:<br> lots of people style their h=
eaders very specifically. In general it<br>
doesn't matter if one author marks his navigation as being part of his=
<br> header and another marks his navigation using <nav>; the result =
is the<br> same: they are clearly marked in the source, they can be styled,=
and they<br>
can be skipped. If one author doesn't use it, or even if most authors =
use<br> it incorrectly, it doesn't mean that other authors can't us=
e it.<br>The use case for <main> is accessibility navigation. If auth=
ors use it<br>
incorrectly, the feature *doesn't work*. The element becomes pointless=
.<br> Combined with the way that the concept of "main" varies fro=
m author to<br> author, you dramatically increase the likelihood that the e=
lement won't<br>
satisfy its stated purpose. </blockquote><div><br></div><div>From analysin=
g the data [2] the wrapping of main content area of a web page in a div wit=
h an id value that indicates it is the 'main content' is a common o=
ccurrence, this indicates that developers do this for reasons other than ac=
cessibility as the majority do not include role=3Dmain or use the div as a =
target for a skip link. What the main element does is piggyback accessibili=
ty onto a common authoring practise.</div>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">Also, since few authors ever test how their<=
br>
page works in ATs, they won't know that there's a problem.<br></bl=
ockquote><div><br></div><div>this is a problem, and it has begun to reveal =
itself due the misuse of new elements such as <section> and <artic=
le>. the difference between <main> and some of the other new eleme=
nts is it is a simpler concept and is unambiguously defined. It builds on t=
he singular instance of use per page (id value) rather than class names.</d=
iv>
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">This is like the difference between <a hr=
ef=3D""> and <img longdesc=3D"">. If<br>
many authors don't use <a href=3D""> right, big deal; =
their pages don't work<br> well, but it doesn't stop other authors =
from using it. If many authors use<br> longdesc=3D"" incorrectly,=
however, it means users who try to use the<br>
feature quickly stop expecting it to work and they give up and even pages<=
br> that use it correctly lose out. </blockquote><div><br></div><div>drawin=
g a comparison between longdesc and main here is fallacious:=A0</div><div>
longdesc is known to be used incorrectly much of the time while role=3Dmain=
is known to be used correctly much of the time.</div><div><div id=3Dmai=
n> is known to be used correctly much of the time.</div><div>longdesc is=
bolt on accessibility requiring not only the correct use of the attribute,=
but also the provision of extra authored content that the attribute points=
to (i.e a lot of extra effort)</div>
<div>=A0<main> is built in accessibility that sneaks accessibility in=
on the back of a common authoring practise,i.e reduction of effort, much l=
ike the <nav> element</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-c=
olor:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
And, since few authors ever test how their<br>page works in ATs, they don&#=
39;t know that there's a problem, and so the<br> feature is _more_ like=
ly to be broken than <a href=3D"">.</blockquote><div><br>
</div><div>=A0that's why building accessibility into features that are =
based on common authoring practises is a good thing.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv><br></div><div>[1]=A0<a href=3D"http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/=
HTML5-main-content/">http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/HTML5-main-con=
tent/</a></div>
<div>[2]=A0<a href=3D"http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012O=
ct/0109.html">http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2012Oct/0109.=
html</a></div><div><br></div>-- <br>with regards<br><br>Steve Faulkner<br>
<br>
</div>
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