[webkit-dev] Size Of Ruby Text?

[Ryosuke Niwa]

I think 5px is way too small.  Maybe 7 or 8 at least but even those are
really hard to read in high-resolution displays.  See
demo<http://plexode.com/eval3/#ht=5px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A5px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A5px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A5px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A6px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A6px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A6px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A6px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A7px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A7px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%0A8px%3A%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E今日%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eきょう%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eは%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E良%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eよ%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3Eい%3Cruby%3E%3Crb%3E天気%3C%2Frb%3E%3Crt%20%20style%3D%22font-size%3A8px%3B%22%3Eてんき%3C%2Frt%3E%3C%2Fruby%3E%3Cbr%3E%3C%2Fdiv%3E&ohh=1&ohj=1&jt=&ojh=1&ojj=1&ms=100&oth=0&otj=0&cex=1>
.

- Ryosuke

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 12:47 PM, David Hyatt <hyatt at apple.com> wrote:

> That document also states:
>
> "When the size of base characters is very small (for e.g. smaller than
> seven points), ruby which is half the size, will be even more small and
> illegible. In such cases where the size of base characters is very small,
> ruby is not a suitable method of annotation. In those cases, consider other
> annotation methods such as adding the reading in parenthesis immediately
> after the base character.
>
> It also sounds like we need to special case Ruby elements and allow their
> font sizes to go down to about 5px instead of 9px.  Anything lower, and
> you're getting to the point where ruby was unsuitable (according to the text
> above) anyway, since the base text was so small.
>
> I filed:
>
> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=48942
>
> dave
> (hyatt at apple.com)
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 2:29 PM, Yasuo Kida wrote:
>
> In printing the standard is 50% of the base text. For larger point sizes
> like headings, the size of ruby is often smaller than 50%.
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2009/NOTE-jlreq-20090604/#en-subheading2_3_3
>
> So, how about we default to 50% and see how they come out. Glyphs designed
> for ruby are optimized for those small point sizes. It is possible on some
> screen resolutions we might want to make it a bit bigger but as screen
> resolution gets higher I think it makes more sense to stick to 50% following
> the standard in printing.
>
> - kida
>
> On 2010/11/03, at 12:05, Eric Mader wrote:
>
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 8:56 AM, David Hyatt wrote:
>
> WebKit enforces a minimum font size of 9px when no explicit font size is
> specified.  This means that the font for <rt> cannot fall below 9px if it is
> relative to the user agent default.  It may be that we want to consider
> modifying this minimum for ruby text and allow it to go below 9px though.
>  I'm not sure.
>
>
> Yes, that's probably what I'm seeing. I'm using default font size, which is
> probably 12pt.
>
> If you make a really big Ruby (e.g., <ruby style="font-size:96px"> and then
> modify the font-size percentage on the <rt>, you should be able to see it
> take effect.
>
> We should probably just study real-world Japanese examples to see how small
> Ruby typically is allowed to get.  If it can go below 9px and still be
> readable, we should perhaps consider allowing that.
>
>
> I'm sure the detailed spec. addresses this issue. I'll review it.
>
> In terms of excluding Ruby text from the overall line height, I don't think
> the font-size of the <rt> is particularly relevant.  You just want to hack
> the Ruby to turn the ruby text into overflow rather than having it be part
> of the overall height of the inline-block.
>
>
> Of course. The website I was using has the line height set too tight for
> correct display this way, and I just wanted to try a smaller size to see if
> it looked better. OTOH, that site loads a style sheet that overrides the
> ruby text font-size to 6pt, so I can't easily override it, and its' probably
> displaying as 9pt anyhow.
>
> dave
> (hyatt at apple.com)
>
>
> Regards,
> Eric
>
> On Nov 3, 2010, at 1:20 PM, Eric Mader wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> As part of my work on ruby text enhancements, I'm implementing the option
> of not counting the height of the ruby text in the overall line height. As
> part of this, I wanted to play with changing the size of the ruby text. I'm
> trying to do this by changing the following lines in
> <WebKit>/WebCore/css/html.css:
>
> ruby > rt {
>     display: block;
>     font-size: 60%; /* make slightly larger than 50% for better readability
> */
>     text-align: center;
>     text-decoration: none;
> }
>
> However, when I change the font-size: attribute to, say, 50%, I don't see
> any difference in the size of the ruby text. (I even tried 25% just to be
> sure). Is this value being set somewhere else?
>
> Regards,
> Eric Mader
>
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