[webkit-dev] Open Design beyond Open Source
mjs at apple.com
Fri Feb 16 23:23:51 PST 2007
Thanks for sharing your concerns.
On Feb 16, 2007, at 10:29 PM, George Staikos wrote:
> On 16-Feb-07, at 9:22 PM, Mike Emmel wrote:
>> Here is the link of what you have to go through to commit now.
>> People wanting to do a new port are not going to go through this long
>> trial program just to commit in fact that have not. The KDE team has
>> pre-existing interest and both OSX and S60 are commercial. The two
>> true open source ports gdk/windows plus the wx widget port have
>> basically been failures so far.
> If you mean to say that the impression given off by the webkit
> project is one of "we don't want you" or at least "we're not really
> interested in having more people join our project", I have to
> agree. I still don't get the feeling of a welcoming project. Is
> it a form of extreme paranoia that some new developer might
> introduce a bug? Maybe.... I'm not sure I consider that a valid
> reason though.
We really do want the WebKit project to be open to new contributors.
We spend a lot of effort working on this. If we didn't care about
having new developers join, we wouldn't have the whole public
repository and web site at all.
It is true that the WebKit project has somewhat higher barriers to
entry than other large open source projects, like KDE. But I believe
the barriers are lower than some others, like Mozilla.
Here are the barriers I think we have:
1) We require code review for all changes.
2) We do not grant commit access automatically; we expect people to
have a track record of being good contributors. Note that this is
more about showing that you can work with others and are not a source
of conflict or negativity. It is not about coding skills.
3) We do not give review privileges automatically. This is more about
understanding project policies and having good judgment
4) We require all code changes that affect processing of web content
to come with a regression test case (if it is possible to make one).
I think getting a patch reviewed is easier than in Mozilla, where you
need a review and a "superreview" and adherence to all review
happening in bugzilla is much more strict (we often bypass that and
do review via email or IRC for established developers). But perhaps
it is harder than for KDE, where things are often committed without
I think it is also easier to get commit privileges than in Mozilla. I
checked some stats, and everyone who has contributed more than 5
patches so far this year already has commit rights. That says to me
that the people actively contributing have the access they need. Now,
it may be that some people were discouraged from even contributing in
the first place. But that shows a lack of commitment to me.
>> So from and opens source perspective webkit is not a smashing success
>> in drawing in the open source community only the KDE team has really
>> contributed and they were the original developers. The S60 port also
>> has a history of working with KHTML before webkit was made
>> a open project.
> I wouldn't say so. I think the KDE contribution is effectively
> nil. The Qt port is distinct from KDE plans. KDE as a community
> has yet to find a way to work together with WebKit for reasons that
> I think you're also experiencing and perhaps not clearly
> articulating. Yes I'm writing this from @kde.org and have
> contributed a huge amount to KDE, KHTML, etc over the past 8-9
> years. Until I have the KDE community feeling welcome and
> confident in participating, and until we have functioning code and
> development happening for a useful kpart, I don't see our Qt port
> as anything relevant to KDE. I'm trying to make it relevant, and I
> want it to be relevant, but it really isn't.
> I've had a webkit SVN account for almost 2 years now. I first
> tried to merge WebKit code back to KDE after all the KDE developers
> (with Maksim's help), determined that it just wasn't feasible to go
> any further without a complete replacement. I then started the
> current Qt port and managed to enlist several KDE developers to
> help me. At least one has given up again already, unsurprisingly.
> We made some great progress but it's an absolutely ridiculous
> development model as far as getting real work done. So far we had:
> 1) Work outside webkit SVN to start the port
> -> webkit renames and refactors hit us hard
> 2) Port again, also outside of WebKit SVN (note: we were doing a
> very large number of commits/week. far more than now)
> 3) Spend far too much time merging from WebKit SVN, especially when
> things like renames and refactors happen
> 4) Eventually give up and merge back to webkit SVN
> 5) End up in a ridiculous situation of having one member of the
> porting team as the only person with rights to review the work.
> Interesting, since that person has no-one who can review his work
> under the formal rules. The guy who started the port, and the guy
> who invented KHTML altogether are not given review rights.
> 6) Work slows down drastically as developers are discouraged and
> are stuck in procedure that has relatively little value for the
> given situation.
> Not a good model. Maybe it works in an office with a couple of
> infrequent contributors, but it doesn't work so well for a
> distributed network of people trying to contribute significant
> amounts of code. I fully agree that some sections of webkit need
> strict review control, testcases, bug reports, and other formal
> procedures. I strongly support it in fact. The current situation
> is not limited to just this. Moreover, it feels very much like a
> Brusselized project, in stark contrast to where it came from
> originally. This feeling applies to "ports" as much as anything
> else right now.
I think you are right that the process may be overkill for new ports
that are still under construction. In the early stages, you want to
move quickly, not be overly bogged down by process. Here are some
thoughts I've had on making it better:
* We offer ports the opportunity to have their own branch where they
can have whatever review policy they like. We should probably do
something similar for the port-specific code for ports that are
living on the trunk. Either let such ports make up their own review
policy for purely port-specific code, or give many more people review
rights for at least the purely port-specific code.
(On the other hand, when port code isn't reviewed at all by people
working on other platforms, it makes it more difficult to maintain
coding standards, share knowledge, and ensure that core changes don't
break ports, so some degree of cross-review is probably helpful.)
* I'm happy to give you and Lars review rights for Qt/KDE platform-
specific code, right now if you want it. We don't usually talk about
this kind of stuff in public, but since you raised it in public, we
would definitely give Lars general review rights as soon as he is
sufficiently familiar with our particular version the core code.
* We would give more KDE developers commit rights, but so far no one
else has asked, or started submitting patches. I don't know what to
do about it for other ports. For what it's worth: currently 6 KDE/Qt
developers have commit rights, and we made the offer to one more who
declined at the time.
* Refactoring/renaming breaking code is a hassle, but (a) it becomes
less of an issue for more mature ports that are living on the trunk
and have a BuildBot set up; and (b) a lot of the heavy refactoring
will be very good for ports in the long run, since it moved a lot of
code down from Cocoa/ObjC to platform-neutral C++ code. Other than
that, I don't know what to do about it. It's hard to track a fast-
If you have any other specific suggestions for I would be glad to
hear them. I feel bad that you are frustrated, and we will gladly
listen to constructive suggestions. I can't promise we will take all
suggestions but we will give them consideration. You also know my
phone number and my email if you'd like to talk to me personally,
which I am happy to do any time.
>> In my book this makes WebKit a failed open source project so far.
> I wouldn't go that far. I would call it a successful open
> source project with a rather closed community at the moment. Open
> source doesn't need community, but it sure helps. I really don't
> think there are any technical problems, just social ones.
FYI, three of the top 5 patch submitters for 2007 so far are not
Apple employees (mitzpettel, ap, lars). So I don't think the process
stops non-Apple coders from participating. But it's true that most of
the code changes being made are still by Apple employees, if only
because a lot of us are working on it full time.
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