Suggesting to enable paint timing by default
Following the discussion with Simon in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78011 Since we have a pretty stable spec (https://w3c.github.io/paint-timing/), lots of passing web platform tests, other browser vendor support and a working implementation of first contentful paint, I am planning to submit a patch to enable paint timing by default. https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736 Any objections? Other thoughts?
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing? We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks. I’d like to hear from others on maturity of the spec and readiness of the code. - Maciej
On May 11, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
Following the discussion with Simon in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78011 <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78011>
Since we have a pretty stable spec (https://w3c.github.io/paint-timing/ <https://w3c.github.io/paint-timing/>), lots of passing web platform tests, other browser vendor support and a working implementation of first contentful paint, I am planning to submit a patch to enable paint timing by default.
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736 <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736>
Any objections? Other thoughts? _______________________________________________ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing?
I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks.
A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
I’d like to hear from others on maturity of the spec and readiness of the code.
- Maciej
On May 11, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
Following the discussion with Simon in https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=78011
Since we have a pretty stable spec (https://w3c.github.io/paint-timing/), lots of passing web platform tests, other browser vendor support and a working implementation of first contentful paint, I am planning to submit a patch to enable paint timing by default.
https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736
Any objections? Other thoughts? _______________________________________________ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com <mailto:mjs@apple.com>> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing? I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks. A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute. A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this patch. - Maciej
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing?
I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks.
A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this patch.
Understood. I'd be happy to facilitate/support/do what's necessary to move this forward. Thanks!
Following up on this.
FOn Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing?
I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks.
A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
So, can someone else from Apple review that the code is mature enough for
this? Simon had reviewed the original patch. Maybe Zalan/Darin?
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this
patch.
What's required to ask for help from a helpful person at Apple? :)
+Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> +Alex Christensen <achristensen@apple.com> who were involved in the spec discussions. On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:29 AM Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
Following up on this.
FOn Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing?
I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks.
A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
So, can someone else from Apple review that the code is mature enough
for this? Simon had reviewed the original patch. Maybe Zalan/Darin?
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this
patch.
What's required to ask for help from a helpful person at Apple? :)
webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:04 PM Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws> wrote:
+Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> +Alex Christensen <achristensen@apple.com> who were involved in the spec discussions.
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:29 AM Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
Following up on this.
FOn Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing?
I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks.
A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
So, can someone else from Apple review that the code is mature enough
for this? Simon had reviewed the original patch. Maybe Zalan/Darin?
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this
patch.
What's required to ask for help from a helpful person at Apple? :)
Hola Pinging about this again :) The code for paint timing API is sitting there in the repo, waiting either for internal Apple A/B tests, for an additional code maturity review, or for enabling it by default... I'm here if any changes in the code need to be made.
Trying to figure out how we can proceed with this... @Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>? Cheers
If you tell me how to enable paint timing by default, I can start an A/B task for you. I’m probably not qualified to review it for code maturity though. Cheers, Keith
On Jul 13, 2020, at 3:02 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:04 PM Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws <mailto:yoav@yoav.ws>> wrote: +Ryosuke Niwa <mailto:rniwa@webkit.org> +Alex Christensen <mailto:achristensen@apple.com> who were involved in the spec discussions.
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:29 AM Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org <mailto:noam@webkit.org>> wrote:
Following up on this. FOn Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com <mailto:mjs@apple.com>> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org <mailto:noam@webkit.org>> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com <mailto:mjs@apple.com>> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing? I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks. A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
So, can someone else from Apple review that the code is mature enough for this? Simon had reviewed the original patch. Maybe Zalan/Darin?
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this patch. What's required to ask for help from a helpful person at Apple? :) Hola Pinging about this again :) The code for paint timing API is sitting there in the repo, waiting either for internal Apple A/B tests, for an additional code maturity review, or for enabling it by default... I'm here if any changes in the code need to be made.
Trying to figure out how we can proceed with this... @Maciej Stachowiak <mailto:mjs@apple.com>? Cheers _______________________________________________ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org <mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev <https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev>
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:15 PM Keith Miller <keith_miller@apple.com> wrote:
If you tell me how to enable paint timing by default, I can start an A/B task for you. I’m probably not qualified to review it for code maturity though.
Awesome, thanks! It's an experimental runtime flag calledPaintTimingEnabled I have a patch for enabling it by default here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736 We mainly need to test that measuring paint timing doesn't (badly) influence loading performance.
Cheers, Keith
On Jul 13, 2020, at 3:02 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:04 PM Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws> wrote:
+Ryosuke Niwa <rniwa@webkit.org> +Alex Christensen <achristensen@apple.com> who were involved in the spec discussions.
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:29 AM Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
Following up on this.
FOn Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing?
I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks.
A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
So, can someone else from Apple review that the code is mature enough
for this? Simon had reviewed the original patch. Maybe Zalan/Darin?
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this
patch.
What's required to ask for help from a helpful person at Apple? :)
Hola Pinging about this again :) The code for paint timing API is sitting there in the repo, waiting either for internal Apple A/B tests, for an additional code maturity review, or for enabling it by default... I'm here if any changes in the code need to be made.
Trying to figure out how we can proceed with this... @Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>? Cheers _______________________________________________ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev
Results appear to be neutral on the page load time benchmark, so you should be good on that front. I don’t know who the best person to vet the maturity of the code is though, sorry. Cheers, Keith
On Jul 13, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 9:15 PM Keith Miller <keith_miller@apple.com <mailto:keith_miller@apple.com>> wrote: If you tell me how to enable paint timing by default, I can start an A/B task for you. I’m probably not qualified to review it for code maturity though. Awesome, thanks! It's an experimental runtime flag calledPaintTimingEnabled I have a patch for enabling it by default here: https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736 <https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=211736> We mainly need to test that measuring paint timing doesn't (badly) influence loading performance.
Cheers, Keith
On Jul 13, 2020, at 3:02 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org <mailto:noam@webkit.org>> wrote:
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 12:04 PM Yoav Weiss <yoav@yoav.ws <mailto:yoav@yoav.ws>> wrote: +Ryosuke Niwa <mailto:rniwa@webkit.org> +Alex Christensen <mailto:achristensen@apple.com> who were involved in the spec discussions.
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 10:29 AM Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org <mailto:noam@webkit.org>> wrote:
Following up on this. FOn Tue, May 12, 2020 at 10:28 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com <mailto:mjs@apple.com>> wrote:
On May 11, 2020, at 9:53 PM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org <mailto:noam@webkit.org>> wrote:
On Tue, May 12, 2020 at 1:36 AM Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com <mailto:mjs@apple.com>> wrote:
I noticed from comments in one of the Radars that the patch may result in an additional “fake paint”, so it should probably be performance tested. Have you done any testing? I've tested it locally, I haven't noticed any significant side effect, because in complex situations the fake paint only happens once per page and bails early once contentfulness is detected. but I can run any additional test needed.
We’ll likely want to A/B some of Apple’s page load speed benchmarks. A/B testing load speed sounds sensible. How do we go about doing that?
Unfortunately our page load speed benchmarks are not public because they incorporate captured page content, which we can’t freely redistribute.
So, can someone else from Apple review that the code is mature enough for this? Simon had reviewed the original patch. Maybe Zalan/Darin?
A helpful person from Apple may be able to set up an A/B test for this patch. What's required to ask for help from a helpful person at Apple? :) Hola Pinging about this again :) The code for paint timing API is sitting there in the repo, waiting either for internal Apple A/B tests, for an additional code maturity review, or for enabling it by default... I'm here if any changes in the code need to be made.
Trying to figure out how we can proceed with this... @Maciej Stachowiak <mailto:mjs@apple.com>? Cheers _______________________________________________ webkit-dev mailing list webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org <mailto:webkit-dev@lists.webkit.org> https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev <https://lists.webkit.org/mailman/listinfo/webkit-dev>
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:03 PM Keith Miller <keith_miller@apple.com> wrote:
Results appear to be neutral on the page load time benchmark, so you should be good on that front. I don’t know who the best person to vet the maturity of the code is though, sorry.
Thanks a lot Keith, I appreciate it! @Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, what would be a good way to assert whether the code maturity is good enough to enable paint timing by default? The original code was reviewed by smfr and initially by zalan. It's covered by over 30 tests, mostly WPT, and A/B tests show no effect on load times as per Keith's check. Would asking for additional reviews be the next step? From whom? Cheers, Noam
On Jul 17, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:03 PM Keith Miller <keith_miller@apple.com <mailto:keith_miller@apple.com>> wrote: Results appear to be neutral on the page load time benchmark, so you should be good on that front. I don’t know who the best person to vet the maturity of the code is though, sorry.
Thanks a lot Keith, I appreciate it! @Maciej Stachowiak <mailto:mjs@apple.com>, what would be a good way to assert whether the code maturity is good enough to enable paint timing by default? The original code was reviewed by smfr and initially by zalan. It's covered by over 30 tests, mostly WPT, and A/B tests show no effect on load times as per Keith's check. Would asking for additional reviews be the next step? From whom?
At this point, if a reviewer approves a patch to enable it by default on trunk, I think you are good to go. As a courtesy to Apple, I’d ask you to hold off on landing until mid-September, but that is optional. - Maciej
On Thu, 20 Aug 2020 at 6:26 Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com> wrote:
On Jul 17, 2020, at 12:12 AM, Noam Rosenthal <noam@webkit.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 11:03 PM Keith Miller <keith_miller@apple.com> wrote:
Results appear to be neutral on the page load time benchmark, so you should be good on that front. I don’t know who the best person to vet the maturity of the code is though, sorry.
Thanks a lot Keith, I appreciate it! @Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, what would be a good way to assert whether the code maturity is good enough to enable paint timing by default? The original code was reviewed by smfr and initially by zalan. It's covered by over 30 tests, mostly WPT, and A/B tests show no effect on load times as per Keith's check. Would asking for additional reviews be the next step? From whom?
At this point, if a reviewer approves a patch to enable it by default on trunk, I think you are good to go.
As a courtesy to Apple, I’d ask you to hold off on landing until mid-September, but that is optional.
Great The patch has already been reviewed, I will re-land it in mid September. Thank you!
- Maciej
participants (4)
-
Keith Miller
-
Maciej Stachowiak
-
Noam Rosenthal
-
Yoav Weiss